Hello dear grasshopper! Wouldn’t it be nice if someone were to just reach their arm right out of your computer and drop a nice bag of gold coins on your lap? And nicer yet if they did so on a monthly basis, each and every month handing you more and more bits of silver or gold or your favorite currency?
But of course, this being Kung Fu Finance and not “slack-off-and-wish-someone-would-hand-you-money-for-nothing-all-day-finance”,
(although it is fun to daydream), I can’t promise you quite what the picture does.
But I think I can actually come close, thanks to a relatively new type of investment called peer-to-peer lending.
If you are anything like me, and like most individual investors right now, you are probably searching desperately for yield in that struggling “income” section of your portfolio.
U.S. Treasury bonds?
Not when the 10-year note is paying 1.72% and the 30-year bond is paying a paltry 2.82% (be still my beating heart…so after inflation I have to pay my government to lend them money? No, thank you!)
CD’s and savings accounts?
Don’t make me laugh…(or rather cry, as the case may be!)
Dividend-paying stocks?
Perhaps, but along with carrying more risk they are not exactly cheap right now…
REITs? MLPs? Rental real estate?
Possible, but all require much more research and in the case of rental real estate, footwork (unless you have a wonderful agent and property manager already lined up!)
But happily, a few weeks ago I received an interesting guest post idea from a long-time Kung Fu Finance reader, Larry Ludwig, who wanted to write an article on a relatively new alternative to the above…peer-to-peer investing (also not without its risks, but Larry gives a great rundown of it in his posting today!).
And as it turns out, Larry has extensive boots on the ground experience with this— he has had a portfolio with LendingClub for several years, and has just opened one with Prosper.
Today, Larry will share with us his personal experience with peer-to-peer lending and you can see if it’s something you’d like to add to your own portfolio!
It’s certainly an interesting alternative to some of our other income options at the moment, and it doesn’t require much capital to get started.
Take it away, Larry!
Peer-to-Peer Investing – A Viable Fixed Income Option?
With the Federal Funds rate set from 0.0% – 0.25% until at least 2014, your options for fixed income investing are pretty limited. Bank CDs are now earning less than the average rate of inflation. The trailing twelve months’ of inflation has been 2.8%. Yet according to Bankrate.com, the highest five year CD only earns 1.85% APY. That’s not the average rate, but the highest rate offered.
This means you are losing money in terms of real dollars, and your purchasing power is eroding. As a retiree or someone looking for steady income, what are you to do? Your traditional investing options are pretty limited.
What is Peer-to-Peer Investing?
Fortunately, a new investment class has come onto the scene. The risk profile is similar to junk bonds, but with much more control of risk. Peer-to-peer investing (otherwise known as P2P investing) allows you to effectively become a bank, while also bypassing the traditional banking system.
Banks have been doing this for years. They charge high annual fees on credit cards and make a huge profit in the process.
However, the only way you could take advantage of this as an individual investor used to be by investing in the credit card companies, or in the banks themselves. As you can see, this is not a very direct method to profit from consumer lending. The companies typically offer other banking products as well, which dilutes any profits from unsecured credit.
So it’s best to invest directly. The two most popular P2P companies in the United States are Lending Club and Prosper. As an investor, you can use either company to purchase notes of individuals wishing to borrow money.
Instead of a bank funding the loan, you and a pool of other investors each typically invest $25.
P2P Investing Benefits Both Parties
The Credit CARD Act of 2009 caused the unintended consequence increasing credit card interest rates. So if you have any credit card debt, it’s not uncommon to pay 15% or higher in credit card fees.
However, interest rates for P2P lending start as low as 6%, thus saving the borrower thousands in interest expenses.
The peer-to-peer investor also makes out in the deal. Compared to the typical 2-3% fixed income returns investors are seeing, P2P investors typically receive 8-10% returns.
For the over three years I have been investing in Lending Club notes, I have earned over 9% ROI.
Where is it possible to find that type of return in fixed income today?
How Can You Minimize Risk?
However, investing in peer-to-peer lending is not without its risks:
- Notes are not FDIC insured, and it is possible that a borrower could default.
- Just like credit cards, the loans are unsecured and are not tied to any asset.
So, to minimize the risk of a note defaulting, you invest in many notes — a lot of them!
With my $10,000 portfolio with Lending Club, I currently have over 500 active notes, but only have 12 defaults.
With a small pool of invested notes, one default can be devastating. But by diversifying with a large pool of loans, a few defaults will not affect your return dramatically. This is no different from what banks do—the more notes you invest in, the more stable your return becomes.
Additionally, you as an investor can pick and choose the notes you invest in, which allows you to manage the risk.
If you don’t like borrower’s profile, you can skip it and move on to the next one. You can also choose the risk level of your investment pool. The higher the rate of return on the note, obviously the higher the chance of default.
What I have done to minimize defaults is to look at the historical data. Both companies are very transparent with their loan data. They give out data feeds, so you can analyze the loan history. If you are proficient with a spreadsheet, you can do it yourself. There are also web sites like Lendstats.com (unfortunately via a crude interface) that allow you to dissect the data so you can find the best returns.
Why Did I Pick Lending Club Initially?
I’ve been an investor of Lending Club for over three years now. I also reviewed Prosper, and recently opened an account with them as well.
When I first researched both companies back in 2008, Proper’s lending model was much different at the time. Their risk profile for the borrowers was minimal, and the investor returns showed this. Pretty much anyone with a pulse was allowed into Prosper’s lending system. The returns for many investors was poor, or in some cases negative.
Lending Club on the other hand had a much more effective risk-to-default rating process. Banks for years have done credit risk models, and understand the likelihood of whether or not a borrower will default. Lending Club’s risk model was much more in tune with the way banks score risk to default. Therefore, I chose Lending Club for this reason.
In July 2009, Prosper completely changed their underwriting process, and is now very similar to Lending Club. After studying historical returns from this period forward, I decided to open an account with them as well.
What Are The Expected Returns?
My experience with Lending Club has been great so far. With over 9% ROI it’s hard to find another fixed income investment that beats it.
While my return has varied slightly over the years (1-2% range), it’s been relatively stable. Obviously your own returns can differ, but my returns are pretty typical based upon anecdotal research and on the statistics released from the P2P companies. With my Prosper investment it is still too early to determine the returns, but I expect a very similar outcome.
Do I Recommend P2P Investing?
Without question yes! While I do not suggest putting a large percentage of your net worth into P2P, it can be used to juice up your fixed income asset allocation. It is a long-term investment.
While it is possible to sell notes on the secondary market, notes are not very liquid compared to other fixed income investments. This therefore makes P2P investing not a wise choice for your short-term (under 3 years) investments. Investing is slow in (because of the time it takes to find qualified borrowers), and slow out (because of the time it takes for borrowers to completely pay back the note).
Peer-to-peer investing is still a relatively new investment class, but definitely shows some promise. It’s similar to the asset class of junk bonds, but with much more control with only a small amount invested.
***
This was a guest post from Larry Ludwig of Investor Junkie. Larry writes about how to become a better investor and entrepreneur.
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Thank you, Larry! Something to consider, for sure…9% is pretty darn good, although I imagine it does take time to find a portfolio of 500 or so qualified borrowers.
Has anyone else had experience with peer-to-peer lending you’d like to share? Please let us know in the comments—I’d love to hear what you think about this idea!
To your financial success,
— Kung Fu Girl
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{ 18 comments… read them below or add one }
Thanks Susan for letting me write this post. If anyone has questions related to P2P investing let me know…
No problem Larry,
Thank you for writing it! It’s a great look into P2P lending and a great start to a discussion about it!
Thanks very much!
– KFG
I tried Prosper years ago (probably 2008, in fact), and ALL of my borrowers defaulted over time. I only tested the water with a few hundred bucks and four or five borrowers, and only picked out the “best rated” borrowers according to Prosper.
I understand from the post that they changed their standards since then, but it left a bad taste in my mouth and I’d never lend through them again. I still get emails from Prosper, and it always makes me angry when I see one come in. (I should probably unsubscribe, but I always angrily delete them as soon as I see them, without opening!)
I really, really like the idea of it. But I’d hesitate to try it again. If I did try again, it would probably be the other site mentioned, which I was not aware of until this post.
I agree about Prosper pre July 2009. Though still out of the two I still lean more towards Lending Club.
Still though 4-5 borrowers isn’t statically large enough of a sample to invest with either company. If $5-10k a lot of money to invest for you, then I wouldn’t recommend P2P investing.
Yes, from what I understand (although unfortunately I don’t speak from personal experience– sorry!) it is best to diversify your loans among many borrowers…I do have another friend who invests with Lending Club and has great returns, but he has thousands of loans in his account. I’ll see if I can get him to chime in here.
– KFG
Larry – I appreciate the fact you describe these investment accurately. They are similar to JUNK BONDS! These are very high risk investments that require a great deal of discretion and research when choosing loans.
In addition, they have a very short history and have never gone through a long economic downturn. The default rate could soar beyond what anyone expects in a bear market. Diversification will be of no help in such an environment. Anyone willing to take such risk should only do so with money they can afford to lose!
Ken,
Lending Club DID see the 2008-2009 recession and did fine. Prosper did awful during this period, but that was with their old “anything goes” lending model. So while no they haven’t seen multiple bear markets, they have seen the biggest recession in modern history. That is nothing to sneeze at.
Yes I agree they don’t have a 30 year history, you can lend some stats (pun intended) from the credit card industry and see how do they fair in recessions.
With all loans combined Lending Club did:
2008 – 2.7% APR
2009 – 5.1% APR
That’s not filtering loans I would never lend to. 2007 only had a 0.1% return but only had 603 loans during that period. I consider this data not that relavent since it’s statically a small sample. Even then statistically you would more than likely get your money back. While it’s expected during a recession more defaults, how many individuals default on credit cards during recessions? It’s the same type of credit. While I don’t have that info handy that is something that should be available online. Diversification WILL help minimize defaults, not everyone defaults or defaults at the same time.
So statically the data isn’t showing what you are stating.
You are more than welcome to do the research yourself on:
http://lendstats.com/
I understand from the number of comments previously, you don’t like P2P lending. That’s fine. You are more than welcome to guest post on my site giving the facts why and open to peer review by other P2P investors as well.
I am a pretty heavy investor in P2P (or, as they seem to be dubbing themselves these days, I suppose to avoid being thought of as associated with the largely subprime markets of auto and home lending, Prime Consumer Credit). I have been using both Prosper and Lending Club since nearly the beginning for each, and have more of my portfolio in P2P lending than any other one asset class (besides the technology stocks I make my living selecting) — which I think speaks volumes to what I am about to say.
These are very good investments for many people and can be a great alternative to dividend stocks, corporate or government bonds, and other income vehicles like CDs. You can earn a very high real, post-tax yield, if you approach the market correctly (which is not at all difficult).
P2P loans are not “set it and forget it” type investments, of the type many investors look for when they turn to target date mutual funds, large cap indexes, or just to a money manager. Just like you wouldn’t blindly pick stocks by selecting the first 100 to show up in a random list of stocks, you shouldn’t approach consumer lending as a shotgun style investment. Instead, take care to hand pick your loans, seeing what investors have to say about their loan, considering their debt-to-income ratios, looking at their loan amount versus outstanding revolving credit (especially for debt consolidation loans, the most common category on these sites today), all of which are provided at a glance. A little common sense judgment, and one hour a week of work, and in my experience you can easily maintain a portfolio of 1000 or more loan slices.
Of course, if you are the kind of investor who prefers to let someone (or some algorithm) do the work, as you have better places to spend your time, that doesn’t rule out P2P. Rather than invest across P2P broadly, like an index fund approach of selecting everything that meets one quantitative bar or another, head the data cited above from http://www.lendstats.com, and look toward a fund that actively selects top quality loans. Lending Club offers (but cannot advertise because of arcane and ridiculous federal regulations) private funds that will manage your investments for you. You can simply call them up to inquire about them — the fees will be slightly higher, but are still reasonable. Of course (because of those same laws, an unfortunate reality that keeps a lot of the best investments exclusively for those who have already found success — but that is another discussion) you must be an accredited investor to participate, as they are private funds.
Over the past 5+ years that I have been investing in P2P loans, with thousands of small loans under my belt, managed entirely by myself, and I have averaged 7.8% after tax returns. That is far better than can be said about most comparable indexes for income investors, and it required only a minimal amount of my time. I for one can wholeheartedly recommend P2P investment, from my own personal experience, for those people who would like to have some of their investments out of the stock and bond markets, and still have a chance for strong gains (and who are willing to put in just a little work managing their portfolios).
Hi Alex,
Thanks for your insight… You are absolutely correct about you need to actively manage your portfolio. Many get scared at this, but like you state it’s about 1 hour weekly. I don’t discuss it here, but do mention all of this on my web site.
While I personally don’t like the active management from either P2P company offers, but some my prefer the hand-holding. I think most people with a little research and time, can do just as well and in some cases better.
Thank you very much for your insight, Alex, and for sharing your experience with us!
I think I am going to add a P2P section to my portfolio, and encourage Kung Fu Grandma to do the same. It sounds like you just need to think like a bank and qualify your loans, and diversify your risk of default among many (and then keep an eye on them). That doesn’t sound so bad….I am definitely willing to do that for 7+% return after taxes!
Thanks so much for taking the time to comment and for your insight!
– KFG
KFG,
One thing to consider is LC/Prosper is considered ordinary income, and not cap gains or dividends. Though if taxes go up next year, it won’t matter.
Yes, this is true, and big thing to pay attention to. Also, note that LC does not provide all taxable income on their 1099-OID, the form on which they report your taxable income. For loans that produce less than $10 each in interest (very common) they don’t have to report, but you still do. Conversely, you get to right off your losses from defaults first. Definitely somewhere an accountant can help. OID is not a commonly used category for taxes though, so use someone experienced.
Hi Kung Fu Girl
This comment has nothing to do with peer-to-peer lending. I do way to much of that now.
I would like to know what you think of the following. One, because it seems that no one is really talking about it. Two, they seem to be afraid of really telling one big thing that this will do not only to the U. S., but most of the world.
It’s the 3D PRINTERs.
They are portable factorys, that everyone can have and most will have in their offices and homes. It’s has already started in 2012 and will be as
common as a screwdriver in Ungle Henry’s homeowner’s garage as the next 3 or 4 years rolls in.
You will be able to print just about everything that you would want. A engineer has already printed a AR-15 rifle that shoots just a good as as
manufactured one the old way. Toke him only 20 minutes to print it out.
I’ll tell you what the media or other sources are not talking or saying about this.
I predict that the impact on jobs will be really bad. With the jobless masses storming the barricades.
So I would like you to think about this and let me know what you think and predict?
Oh, I found out that the Military is using 20 ft. long trucks with 3D Printers inside over in the war areas. The Government paid 21/2 million for each one of them.
I’m looking forward to your answer.
Thanks
Ron Blake
Good article. Wanted to chime in that more and more there are services popping up to provide P2P investors additional information to make their choices. I have been investing in LC heavily this year, buying more than $35,000 in notes. With an automated algorithm based on a solid statistical approach, it does not take much time at all (15 minutes for a $5,000 investment these days) and I am aiming to help others do the same.
KFG,
Thanks, this was a great string of comments and thanks to Peter Renton for passing it along on his weekly Roundup of Social Lending News. Let me offer another data point for your convenience sample. I invested $25K in LC and $20K in Prosper about a year ago and depending on what happens this month I am projecting an ROI of slightly less than 8% and slighly more than 15% respectively. I provided both firms my risk profile and they automatically invest the money for me (although I prefer to characterize my investment involvement as being on autopilot rather than having my hand held).
RE: the off topic post – check out 3-D Systems (ticker – DDD) they have a long history and are preparing to launch a ‘consumer’ version if they haven’t already
I have been looking into P2P investing since reading this article and have a concern that I would like to see if anyone else shares:
I can imagine a scenerio where the Bankocracy may act on P2P investment arrangements because they see it as an affront to their way of life. Granted P2P is very small still; the number of individuals involved and hence the amount of money are not significant in the overall financial system. The feds have acted on products of small scale in the past and I concerned that in their haste to save the public from this dangerous lending practice (as they would agrue) they may make it difficult to get our capital back out.
Does anyone see a scenerio where investor funds could be at risk if the feds decided to shut down this voluntary, mutually beneficial, financial agreement between three parties (lender, borrower, facilitator) that hurt no one but is not part of the “system”?
The first time I read this post it seemed it was written by Kung Fu Girl. But after I investigated Lending Club and prepared to make a comment I noticed it wasn’t written by Kung Fu Girl but Larry. So Kung Fu Girl hasn’t invested in P2P. That’s point one.
Point two. Read the following statement from the most recent Lending Club prospectus. It’s all you need to know:
“The Notes. LendingClub investors have the opportunity to buy Notes issued by LendingClub and designate the
corresponding member loans to be originated through our platform and funded with the proceeds of their Note purchases. The Notes will be special, limited obligations of LendingClub only and not obligations of any borrower member. The Notes are unsecured and holders of the Notes do not have a security interest in the corresponding member loans or the proceeds of those corresponding member loans, or in any other assets of LendingClub or the underlying borrower member.”
You have no legal enforceable interest in the loan payment cash flows what so ever. The loan payments with interest can be made on all the loans you invest in but you could get nothing according to this statement.
Hi Kung Fu Girl,
I’m new to KFF this month, after seeing your interview on RT.
I have want to learn to do more adventurous and profitable investing, even business, for a while, so that I can exit the rat race and my mortgage, so am working my way through your material and suggested books.
I’ve been investing and trading in allocated Gold and Silver Bullion since late 2007 and have averaged about 24% pa, even after buying Silver near the peak. On my picked funds in my pensions, I have managed decent gains too by picking and switching to ‘high risk’ funds which I thought would do better.
A 9% pa return on P2P lending strikes me as low return for the work and risk involved, given my other gains; am I missing something?
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